Born That Way? As A Scientist, I Disagree Strongly...
Ok.. finally a more serious post...
I was discussing homosexuality with dr. h the other day and after reading various journals, studies, NARTH articles etc.. I came to my own hypothesis with the help of my intelligent geneticist dr. h.
u-c dr. h took genetics with dr. cecil jacobson....the father of artificial insemination..he took his honors class! besides, dr h is a high risk pregnancy obgyn, surgeon and scientist...his theory, which i fully am in agreement with is the following..
Men who are homosexual, bisexual or SSA in or out of the lds church are in a state of "arrested development" as dr h puts it. he says "take an average 13 year old boy and put him next to a gay man (not literally, figuratively) and you have one and the same behavioral patterns, idiosyncrasies etc.
Narcissistic
Insecure
Did i say Narcissistic?
J.R. Tolkien
Star Wars
Scarlet Pimpernel
X-box? debatable
Harry Potter
Did I say Harry Potter?
Narth scientific journal article says... "overwhelmed by the feminine, they HATE being controlled in any way"
Freudian "potty" and bodily function preoccupation
Anger
Frustration
Depression
Ok, the last three are frequently present in adult gay males. But I can see where the logic follows. My ex S. was very narcissistic. Everything was about HIM. HIS pain, HIS depression, HIS bad childhood, HIS therapy sessions, HIS medications, HIS use of nitrous etc. HIS not wanting anyone to control him, or help him. He was so preoccupied with his issues, he didn't realize the rest of us, his family were becoming worn out!
back to the theory.. One study:
First year of all gay relationships, 60% of partners cheat on one another.
After first year, 90%, my goodness 90%!! cheat of their significant other.
Where is the security? the perseverance? The commitment?
Another study talks about the physical obsession gay men have with their body's shape, waist line, look. I love looking pretty and being in top shape, walking etc. So this is not really a problem area for me. But the difference is, if one is expecting their partner to be in perfect shape, stay physically top etc. and they fail to meet this expectation, most women will stay with their husbands if they gain/loose weight, get seriously ill etc. This study shows statistically this does not happen typically in the gay relationship. U know the Abrecrombie and Finch ads representing what they want in a partner.. as unrealistic as the Glamour ads are for women!
This fixation on the physical body reminds me of the awkward teenage years of any boy or girl. Its ok to want to look beautiful. I've always tried to look pretty etc. and some people in my family would call me a "perfectionist" in every way....My nickname at University was Diane from Cheers...Yup, i admit watching cheers on boxset this week with dr. h, is very spooky at times... I used to be told I looked like shelly long also, and finally saw cheers and was floored! but i digress...but i think even my gay friends will agree with me, that the physical is top on their list of what they want in a partner. Sex is important, one of Maslow's Basic Needs (the ladder rungs, i think it was 3rd from the top!)
Women seem to have qualities etc. that are needed during these times in a marriage. Think Carol Lynn Pearson taking care of her gay husband who died of AIDS. SHE was by his side day and night. Where was his narcissistic gay lover? Where was his boyfriend? Friends? They bailed on him.
I know their are exceptions, but they are few and far in-between.
Back to the arrested development theory.
Most of these men act like they are stuck between the ages of 12-16. Alot of men and women have had Same Sex attraction and even experienced experimentation, but they move on to adulthood and usually continue their life into heterosexuality. Which incidentally perpetuates the species, homosexuality most definitely does not. Although for unexplained reasons (scientific data lacking) gay men do reproduce with heterosexual women and have children, then continue to live gay lifestyle. I would love to see a study someday as to why this is. The most obvious answer is their need to create a posterity, children etc.
Anyway, dr. h feels that admiration of another boy/man etc. is very normal, but when it is sexualized that's when the trouble begins. I must say at this point that I have various gay friends in and out of the Church. I love them very much and do not blame them for their ssa. I am trying to discover why there are so many lds ssa coming out now and in the last 5 years.
I think it is that we live in a Telestial World. Environment + the personality of the child have to do with the grade of homosexuality in a person. Dominating, controlling moms with shy, sensitive boys seem to be a lethal mixture. My ex-husband's mom was controlling and very abusive. He was very withdrawn etc. Even though I am not controlling, he would identify me with his mom because of my activity in the lds church (very active).It was very sad to think of him as a child, and how truly mean she was to him. This is why i guess i forgive him and feel bad for him.
I think dr. h has something here. I do believe gay men are in a state of arrested development, emotionally hovering between 12-16. They still have the intelligence to go on to become Drs., dentists, lawyers, whatever, but emotionally, just like teen boys, are self-absorbed, immature and self-centered. In terms of them being fathers and husbands, the wives become "mother" to them as well as their children. Again, this is very emotionally draining for the woman married to the gay man. According to NARTH psych studies, these men started out associating with the feminine, then went on to dad associating with the masculine, but somewhere along the way, mom's controlling, over-molding behavior for her lack of emotional fulfillment with her own husband, is perpetrated on the little boy, then he doesn't quite connect with dad, hits his teens, has a sexual experience or two..either by choice, or through molestation, does not wish to date/associate with girls, and then continues on to homosexuality. Environment...not nature/born that way....Heavenly Father would not frustrate his own plan of happiness by sentencing these poor souls to such an awful fate. I believe these brothers and sisters had one or more of the above experiences in their early development and on... I'm speaking about birth to 3 years old, 3-5, 5-7, 8-11 etc..etc.
Well, not very scientifically put, but in my heart as a former gay mans wife, it makes perfect sense to me. I did love my former mother in law very much. I was devastated to hear the things she did and the lack of warmth she showed to my ex. According to him and other family members, she loved little babies and children up till age 6, she was very affectionate etc, then would cut off the affection and become abusive toward ages 7-up.
Very sad indeed. Well, My bishop is my home teacher and we were speaking about this today. He is very kind and loving. He is very intelligent and a professional man and agreed. I realize these are just opinions, but amongst the three of us and the many, many other professionals, wives of gay men in the Church I've met and therapists in and out of the Church, we seem to agree that these personality traits seem consistant.
I am intrigued reading some of the gay, married and lds blogging. Most of these men must not be too busy at their jobs to see the various times they are posting. One man blogs daily, posts morning noon and night and is a physician. My husband, an ob would never find the time with delivering 30 babies a month and surgery 4x a week! Then I discovered his green out of med school, that explains it! I often wonder if these men shouldn't be putting some of this energy into their marriages, the gospel, dailly scripture reading etc. Pres. Kimball use to say that without daily, intense scripture study, even he felt like he would drift away from the Lord. I am trying with dr. h to study 1 hour a day (just started!) it makes a difference to take the focus of the sin of the world etc. and back on to wholesome, gospel topics.
I needed to get these thoughts out, and I feel like blogging is a way to do this. I am being judgemental but honest when I say that I wonder what their wives (lds gay bloggers) lives are like, well I know very well what I think they are like but I mean knowing my ex husband was corresponding with other gay mormon men would not have helped me feel good. I think there is alot of titillation that goes on amongst these men. Alot of flirting if you will. They seem to try to impress one another much like a teen boy would do with a girl with their knowledge and wit.
I just find it interesting to see the dynamics in their blogging. I guess I am a true labrat...i love experimentation and the results and then re-examining data.
I kinda started my own experiment for now unpublished, on gay mormon married blogging. I see benefits but definate drawbacks to this. 1. these guys have professional jobs, some seem to post 5:30am, all throughout the day and night etc. I know that getting it out is good, but talking about your children naked and bathing seems inappropriate given that most married gay mormon men suffer with porn and masterbation problems and addictions. I would think corresponding with other bloggers with the same "addictions" pull triggers.
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
I don't know what the answer is for spence and others. I know the Lord is Love and so their is great hope and love for these brothers and sisters and their upbringing/trials. Just like we heterosexuals have our issues and temptations and backgrounds and yet are still expected to choose the right and follow the counsel of the Prophet, homosexual/ssa lds are expected to adhere to the commandments, filter thoughts of sight and sound and let only clean thoughts enter therein....
For as a man thinketh, so is he. So hetero/homosexuals both have to try to stay away from porn, stay morally clean, keep their thoughts clean etc.
lds.org has an excellent resource for this on the provident living link called "addiction and recovery" manual
I do not think spence was "born that way". I do believe through a series of very sad and unfortunate incidences he "became" ssa. He tried to do what is right by marrying in the temple.. but he should have given me the option to not marry him and save myself the pain and heartache. Again, I feel the men who are honest with their wives before marriage are amazing as are their wives.
I still love the men who are not honest with their wives, and out of the closet. I just feel that they are creating a slow poison that will eventually overtake them, their marriage and family. It is impossible to have such a clandestine relationship with a spouse and not suffer divorce etc. That is what I think happened to me and spence.
When i fell in love with dr. h, spences mom over the phone told me "spence drove you to fall in love with another man". I felt so bad for spence when i heard that from her. It was nice for her to understand my position, but i knew he needed her support, not me.
His dad, a very nice guy, flew out and took care of him when i moved out and started divorce proceedings. My heart did break for him and the pain i was causing him. I didn't wish to "get even" My anger did not come till years later. Delayed reaction i guess. I would listen to him plead for me to stay married to him etc. but i had to be true to myself and my needs. Not in a narcissistic way, but a realistic way.
Labels: Homosexuality, Plan of Salvation, Scientific Journals, SSA
posted by kittywaymo @ 5:34 PM
13 Comments:
I just have to say that while the findings and generalizations about gay men cited here are probably accurate some of the time, they aren't accurate all the time. There is an incredible need for more research, especially within a church setting, of SSA (male and female), and better representation of that condition to members of the church as a whole.
I'm a female who has SSA, in a very happy marriage of 20 years. My husband and I, of necessity, have very open communication, and although you didn't mention any of the attributes in conjunction with SSA women, I would hesitate to call myself immature, emotionally or otherwise. Also, I've had extensive exposure to, and wonderful friendships with many men who are gay, and while some of them exhibit the attributes you cite, so do many of the straight men I've had opportunity to know (including my straight brother who can't seem to remain in any committed relationship to save his soul). My point is that not enough is known about the condition, in general, and if you read -L-'s, or AnotherOther's blogs, I don't think they could be concluded as any more typically gay than a straight man (although they may argue that point with me). I find them thoughtful, articulate, and anything but self-centered.
One last thought: In the last year, I've been working my way through resolving the after-effects of extensive sexual abuse in my past. My main support system and source of empathy has been a network of gay men of various ages. They've been more than generous with their time, listening ears, and love. Many of them are returned missionaries, and as I watch them deny themselves of romantic love in order to continue faithfully in the gospel, I have nothing but the utmost respect for them. I know, personally, what they are sacrificing. Somehow, I just can't find a place for them in the profile you present. For their sakes, I hope the research wil continue, and someday I hope there will be a place for us in the mainstream LDS faith.
I'm not sure where to start. :-)
As a scientist, you've probably been trained in evaluating the scientific literature and the merits of individual studies and their purported "findings". If you do so, you'll find a lot more measured discrepancy with the social circumstances to which you attribute SSA than concordance. Like Samantha, I agree that the situations you've described apply in some cases, but you seem to want to make it nearly universal with a caveat allowing for "rare exceptions" to cover your bases.
Regardless, I personally agree that "born that way" is an inaccurate over-simplification.
As for blogging, socializing with men who are accepting and supportive despite awareness of one's homosexuality is one of the central objectives of reparative therapy--a therapy based on the social theory of immaturity that you describe. So, you've got kind of a mixed message there. As for me (assuming you were referring to me), I blog with the full support and knowledge of my wife who thankfully is a lot more compassionate than some regarding the issue. It has been a wonderful way to process my thoughts and avoid temptation... basically to be more faithful. It doesn't turn out for everyone that way, unfortunately, so your speculation of its inappropriateness may have some merit.
Let's see. What else? There's so much here that's over the top, I'm not quite sure I've got the time for a response. You know, what with the patients waiting. ;-) Many of my odd hours postings are done while in the hospital on call when I'm having a breather and would otherwise be wasting time elsewhere.
Anyway, glad you posted on my blog so I could find you and come for a visit. Have a happy Sabbath.
Thank you Samantha. I first want to say sexual abuse is not discussed enough in the LDS church and I try to bring it up and educate various classes as much as I can. (I'm a gospel doctrine teacher in my ward). My heart goes out to you and others who suffer. I believe you had posted something about Amber. It made me cry to think about this little girl and the hideous last few day of her little life.
I am very biased on my blog and my data is definately generalized! I am biased because like sexual abuse, being married to an abusive, gay mormon, RM was very hard on the self-esteem. He was abusive verbally and at times, physically. I kept up the usual pretenses we do in the CHurch at the time. Partly because he threatened me if I ever told anyone about his SSA. Now, 9 years later, I am not afraid anymore. I am trying to forgive him, but sometimes I struggle to do so. SOme of the gaymormonprofessional men remind me of Spence. Not in the abusive way, but in other ways. I don't know L or Another other well enough to determine how thoughtful they are or if they are self-centered or not. I imagine L's wife would be the judge of that and ANother Others' family. They seem very nice from their blogs. I am at times confused when I am on other non-member blogs (gay) and find comments from L that seem inappropriate. I question this because he is a new physician and he should be careful what he says on these blogs. That is what I was referring to. I was a CNN Headline News Journalist for 17 years before I went into pharmacy. I know most of the journalists in the country, through meetings, associations etc.
Anyway, I like L, I just want he and the other guys and you and the other gals to know that your spouse wants to be your best friend! Even though the straight spouse may not relate to the ssa, they NEED to feel included, loved, cherished, trusted etc. It is hard as the "striaght spouse" to get what we need as human beings to be fulfilled sexually, emotionally at at times, spiritually. In most cases we are in co-dependent relationships with the gaylds partner and dealing with related issues of codependency of the gay spouse (porn, masturbation, addictions to drugs/alcohol, inactivity etc.)This is not to be judgemental, it is just facts. Not to sound clinical and cold, but alot of times these mixed marriages are not 50/50. I personally felt like I gave 100 percent as a mom, wife, etc. in my former marriage and I tried desperately to "hold things together" in the family and daily life, even in his dental practice (I was his business manager and worked morning drive at a radio station in florida). I know alot of these other guys are great providers, have stay at home wives etc and they are not abusive and that is wonderful. But most of these men, if they were honest with themselves, and I think they are trying to be can tell you they are addicted to porn, masturbation etc. This doesn't make them terrible, just human. They need to seek help to overcome these strong addictions. One needs Priesthood leaders, therapy, and alot of spiritual hard-work to overcome such addictions. Many gay men in the CHurch have had issues since puberty with P & M and this is 10,20 and 30 years worth of addiction. This cannot be accomplished by blogging alone. I was also pointing out that there are alot of triggers I read in these posts that I think for my gaymormon friends would be a problem for them. Please see LDS-SSA.org. I've been posting there for 3 years and I love the people on that site. I have learned so much. The truth is a sword that cuts at the heart of we sinners sometimes, and a balm in gilead for those who live the law of chasity and give up "romantic love" as you put it. What about hetersexual sisters and brothers? they are expected to refrain from porn and masturbation and sex...If they are expected to be celibate, why shouldn't our gay mormon bros and sisters be expected to remain faithful and morally clean? There are many,many people: the Elderly, Widows and Widowers, Singles, Divorced Parents who live the law of chasity every day and do not think they are making a sacrifice. Our attitude should be eventually, me included, that we with enthusiasm, want to follow the Lords commandments, want to show our love for the Lord more than our love for our own physical bodies and appetites..This is a challenge indeed. God bless you Samantha, thank you again.
Love, Kittywaymo
L, thank you very much, I am a frequent lurker to your blogs and thoroughly enjoy your humour and original thought.
I love my SSA brothers and sisters. LDS-SSA.org has been my home for 3 years and I couldn't have found better men and women anywhere in the Church. Blogging is a way for me to deal with my own emotional/mental health.. and is much more fun/frugal:)My stepson just finished residency back in VA. He's an ER doc and we tease him all the time about his "downtime". WHen I worked ER you could not say "hey its slow tonight" because that meant a slew of car accidents and skiers! So I won't say I hope you see alot of patients, I will say you sound like a firstrate doc and your patients must enjoy your sense of warmth and humour.
I loved your post about taking a nurse in with you when you did a male exam! My husband laughed also because he agrees with you totally! The AMA is not known for its "intellegence. Most boards of meds are lacking also. Lets hope the future changes. Pharmacy of course is perfect!;)
love, kittywaymo
Thanks for your response. One of the things that I am working for within the church is widening the acceptance of all brothers and sisters, including those who experience ssa, abuse, and addictions of all kinds. In our stake we have been highly successful in using the church's 12-step program for addictions. Our support group is extremely well-attended and the men and women who participate report marvelous relief and changes in their lives.
I will certainly concur that porn and masturbation is a widely spread addiction among gay Latter-day Saints, and also among those who are not gay. It's an issue we need to address across the board, which is, I suppose one of the points I'm trying to make. All people have weaknesses and challenges, and need the love and acceptance of their brothers and sisters withing the gospel to support them as they try to grow through those.
You've suffered through a really awful experience in your former marriage. I would never try to marginalize such an experience. You've indicated that it will not keep you from seeing SSA members of the church as individuals, and understanding that we, many of us, are striving with all our hearts to live pure lives and serve the Lord. You don't see us--you don't hear about us--because we are quietly living our lives and wishing that those who disregard God's laws were less representative of us as a whole, and were a little less loud about it.
I love the fact that you are discussing your views, study, and opinions about this topic. I love the fact that you're allowing dialogue in your comments. Once again, thanks.
P.S. I've linked you on my site. Let me know if you'd like that undone.
BTW, I'm certainly interested to know what specifically you read in my comments on other blogs that you found to be inappropriate. I do have an irreverent streak every once in a while, and I know it. Having you point out the specifics might help me to see whether I could be triggering other people.
Thanks for your well wishes.
Oh, yeah. Feel free to e-mail me at the address in my profile rather than post here if you would prefer.
Kittywaymo:
I cannot understand your position here other than to say that I categorically disagree with your assessment.
You construct your argument of generalities on what gay men are like and what the causes are, and then you, without stating so overtly, nevertheless contrast the gay, "immature" model, to what straight men are like, presumably the "mature" model. You describe gay men as arrested between ages 12-16, unlike straight men. Oh my gosh, have you ever met a man, any man? The stereotypical man is a clod who burps, scratches himself, vegetates in front of the television watching sports, hates changing diapers, refuses to help keep the house clean, prefers the company of his dude friends except for a quick roll in the hay sack, and is emotionally seared shut. Though I do not doubt that there are folks who fit your description of gay, you must obviously be running with the most flamboyant, drama queen lot of them.
Your "overbearing mother" argument is also simplistic. It is not consistent with current light and knowledge either, and it is a hackneyed argument put forth by, among others, President Kimball in the "Miracle of Forgiveness," a book currently on the junk heap of Mormonology, where it always belonged. Bearing in mind the chronology (President Kimball's "weak father/overbearing mother" argument came in the mid 1970's), let's quote "God Loveth His Children":
"God does indeed love all His children. Many questions, however, including some related to same-gender attractions, must await a future answer, even in the next life...Elder Dallin H. Oaks said, “All of us have some feelings we did not choose, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we still have the power to resist and reform our feelings (as needed) and to assure that they do not lead us to entertain inappropriate thoughts or to engage in sinful behavior."
I cannot presume to know what it is like to grow up as a girl in our society, but as a guy, society puts pressure on us to fit a mold, a mold fraught with false and foolish traditions. This accounts for so many of the ills of society today. It is incongruous to think that, facing this "be a (stereoptypical) man or be worthless" dichotomy, any boy would think to choose homosexuality, at least as far as feelings are concerned. The depression and anxiety you alluded to have much to do with coming to terms with feelings that we have been led to believe make us un-masculine, not real men, worthless and good only for mockery and abuse. This world groans under the weight of its cherished false and foolish traditions.
I did not choose SSA, SSA just happened. I choose what I do with it, or rather despite it. My differences have been a continuum from the time I was very young until now. My mother was loving, tender and patient. My maternal grandfather and grandmother (and later my paternal grandmother) were and are a source of undying confidence and love. I wish my daughter could have known them, and through me, in a way, she does.
Though I admit to having made foolish mistakes that could be described as immature, I hardly think that four decades in an eternity is time enough for mastery in so many areas. I afford all the freedom to grow at their pace. I may have been and am behind others in some areas, but I am ahead in others as well.
One last point--as someone who loves the scriptures and tries hard to guide his life by them, your comment implying that gay LDS men are simply not reading the scriptures enough, again implying that straight men obviously do, is a perception not at all drawn from reality. The scriptures can be a magnet to the Lord, as President Kimball rightfully described, but a lack of study of the scritpures is not limited to any sexual orientation. In my experience, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are the best kept secrets in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That and home teaching/visiting teaching and prayer.
To P.M~ Hello! and thank you for your comments.. first of all, I respect your opinion. As a native NYer, and former journalist turned novice scientist (pharmacy not genetics:) I agree that my opinions and point of views in this entry are very basic/over-simplified, yet there is unmistakably truth to back up the model I propose.. Not all gay men who are LDS/Non LDS fit this, I totally agree with you. Just like the stereotypical, oversimplified example you gave of the consummate
straight man, scratching his butt and watching football is not the fairest assessment either. Hey PM, my husband now, who is straight, is a ObGyn, very compassionate, loves to cook, plays the organ in Church and composes his own music, loves to travel and loves art (as do I!:) and wheres a pink tie to church with flowers sometimes. He is very tender when we are intimate and doesn't rush through things etc. yeah, I admit for the gay or straight community (I have many gay friends and family outside the Church who can tell you they've met and dated etc. some real clods tooLOL!) my husband is a gem. He happens to be straight, and unusually kind and considerate. Most of my gay friends (that are guys) though are my best buds for shopping, talking etc. and my sweet husband is very quite and hates shopping!
The point: We as human beings take what our environment, upbringing, associations, perceptions, beliefs have taught us and draw conclusions that are personal. For me, the dentist (my former husband) and I's experience was what I was trying to describe in this entry. It was written right after some lengthy communication via email with him that brought up some old stuff and pain.
I love my gay lds friends!! They are the SALT of the EARTH as far as I'm concerned. I do not understand your last statement/paragraph about the scripture reading etc. or lack thereof. For the record, I don't think scripture study is limited to sexual orientation(huh?) I do think like Lehi's dream, holding unto the iron rod, down the straight and narrow path, leading to the tree of life, which contains the fruit (love of God) is the ONLY way any of us, straight, gay or otherwise can truly be happy and make it back to Heavenly Father. PM, I understand most of what you are saying.
I like to use the 12 step program as a good model for any of us to take stock in our behaviors, habits, addictions, inclinations etc... one of the steps tells us to:
-take stock in our actions, words thoughts of the day at the end of the day. Pray and ask for strength, and forgive and love others, even those who have hurt us in the past.
Regardless of a person's sexual orientation, past experiences with family members, especially parents (i.e. like my example of an overbearing or absent mom, or abusive/cold dad and apathetic mom) can really affect our ability to be intimate on all levels, emotionally, sexually, spiritually and physically with our spouse and/or others. But I want to make it clear I don't believe in blaming others for our problems, that makes us a victim and then we feel defenseless and the cycle of anger, resentment etc just goes round and round..
It's about taking stock like the 12 step program suggests in our lives and taking responsibility to accept the things we cannot change but to change the things we can (i.e. breaking commandments, addictions that are bad for us etc, getting help to change these things) obviously changing sexual orientation is not the goal here, but changing our behavior and attitude toward ourselves and others is. We can still be like "Real Neal" on LDS-SSA.org and help others, keep the commandments, be a great example and Christlike person as Neal truly is and does... He doesn't sit around going "poor me, I'm gay, make the world go away" He DOES something to help others and lift them to higher places! That's the kind of person I want to be and by the will of God, strive to be.
How many categories of different types of gay or straight folks are there? I couldn't venture to guess, as many as there are human beings, because we are all unique and different. My entry was particularly stream of consciousness writing reflecting more on the dentist and some data I came across from NARTH... I gave generalizations that can be experienced by some gay men who are Mormon. My former husband, fitting that particular category in that he had an overbearing mom who actually beat him as a child, and a dad who was very kind, but not very good at protecting him from his mom.
She also laid the perfection bar way up high, where most children or adults could not reach and this, according to his Phd counselor, was a very cruel thing to do to a child. I have great compassion for the dentist, he had a very sad childhood. There are many other people that have sad childhoods who are not gay. What does this mean? I think that gayness comes from environment, most experts agree with me. People are no more born gay then I was born with a thing for doctors(LOL:) those who know me will get that one... seriously, my environment probably helped me form high opinions of physicians (i.e. lived with my aunt as a teen who's a pediatrician, watched alot of general hospital:) Why are some women attracted to james dean types, and others (like myself) to good boys who are slightly nerdy but very, very clever? Environment. They've learned from there experiences etc. So what I'm saying is: if a young man, or child has been exposed to one or more of the following factors:
1. Molestation by a male adult
2. Sexual experience with same sex at young age say, between 7-12
3. Overbearing mom, cold mom etc
4. No dad, or absent dad or passive dad etc.
According to various data, this person MAY have a proclivity to same gender attraction. Of course someone can have all these and turn out straighter then Bruce Willis but hopefully you get the point.
God bless you PM, if you get a chance please read:
Alma 37:37-44, it's one of my favorites. Love, Kittywaymo
Oh to Sam and L feel free to link me to your sites I would be honored! I still haven't figured out how to get you both and some others I like (northern lights, northstar) unto my site. We've been traveling lately and I've been working with some couples where one spouse is SGA so we've kept quite busy, however, I'm going to try to log on once a week etc and check out what's happening in our community~ This past week I gave my home teacher, a new bishop now in our ward information on SSA/SGA, at first he looked a little shook up (it kinda made me smile because I think he thought I was trying to tell him somethingLOL!) however, his response was loving and appreciative once he realized what the info was about and what I am trying to do. Well, we can just keep praying and loving others/serving others and the Lord will do the rest! love kittywaymo
I have heard various theories about the origins of homosexuality, SSA (call it what you will), but being in it and being somewhat aware of my own experience, I see it as a simple case of being born this way. Birth with particular challenges does not mean "pre-destined to follow through with it as a matter of divine plan." Some people are born with a pre-disposition to depression, and some, through great support systems learn to manage it without the aid of medication. Others, through challenges, find that they need counseling and medications. This is analogous to being gay. With greater support, I might have overcome SSA or made greater progress early on, as a teen. I would still have had the gay tendencies to deal with either way.
Not nearly enough study has been conducted on SSA, but the most current studies being reported point to something that occurs in utero, which makes the greatest sense to me.
I am aware of the pervasive belief of "born this way, therefore and thereby justified," but it is false, whether the justification be for heterosexual fornication or homosexual sin. The Lord who knows all things and wants us to be happy can and does guide us through whatever challenges mortality throws at us.
I perceive a fear among Christians to admit the obvious, which is that people are born gay or straight, because of a fear that such a position can defeat Gospel teachings. My answer to this is, either start reading the scriptures or start seeking an understanding of them. Being born with an inclination or defect/weakness does not justify the commission of the same. We're all born with a sinful nature/inclination, so I for one reject the incongruous belief that the only inclination or weakness we're not born with (born means in the body, not spirit) is homosexuality.
For every instance you can find of someone who had an unsupportive mother and weak father, and who turned out gay, you find others who did not. Personally, I think these factors (family, environment) only contribute tangentally. Once choices are made, a person can walk down a path that can cloud their judgment and create yet further challenges to overcome.
I think we are only now, as Christians, beginning to throw down the blinding tradition that "the Gospel is for everyone, except for gays, because G-d hates f-gs." Sadly, this has been one of the most cherished tenets of Christians both in and out of the Church, and this motivated bizzare "treatments" of SSA.
More dialogue is needed, but we cannot discount the power that a testimony of the restored Gospel has in overcoming all challenges, and homosexuality is just one of them.
Dear PM, Thank you for your insightful comments~ although I agree with some of your thoughts, (namely there needs to be much, much more dialogue at Church, at home, at school everywhere about this issue that affects virtually every family.
I agree, that people, not just christians or mormons are becoming more loving about SGA or being gay. That's because our husbands, brothers, sons and fathers are people we love hopefully unconditionally.
My husband now, is a fertility expert, obgyn, surgeon, background in genetics and psychology(he has a degree in psych) I asked him his opinion (which i kinda knew anyway, but needed more of the "science" behind it) about being born gay or environment, the age old argument. he says the following:
"Sexual preferences always have been and always will be a learned behavior. There isn't a single shred of reproducible scientific evidence that an individual is born homosexual. Whether a man prefers blonde, big chested women, (as a heterosexual) or dark haired blue-eyed guys (as homosexual) comes as a result of the total experiences that individual has had in his life."
"No one is born liking blonde haired women or dark haired men. In Tonga, big is beautiful. In America, thin bodies are considered beautiful. These are all cultural and learned preferences. "
I believe a loving Heavenly Father would not cause someone to be born with desires that are contrary to the plan of salvation. I also believe that this same loving Heavenly Father understands that sometimes our environments, which as babies and children etc we do not have control over, can provide situations etc. that may be conducive for certain learned behaviors that are harmful to our spiritual health. This doesn't mean we are not loved by Father in Heaven, of course He loves us and will help us that much more with our situations.
I use the example that I grew up without a dad (my dad left when I was 2) and I have a very loving mom who's truly the greatest, but she never remarried.
I have ALWAYS literally liked older men, period! mean when people in HS or JH liked boys there age, I had absolutely no interest. I did however, fall in love with my social studies teacher, Mr. Obrien (we even made t-shirt that said "summer sweethearts, during the final exam for SS I actually wore mine!)
My husband now is 20 years older than me. Most people can't understand my attraction to older men, especially women who tend to like younger men. I WAS NOT BORN THAT WAY:) I didn't choose to like older men either. It happened according to former counselors I've had in the past, due to the fact that I needed a father figure and a husband in one. I am lucky in that it's not the difficult situation SGA people go through (i.e. facing excommunication if they marry same sex) however, I have had my share of prejudiced individuals that have treated me and my husband with disgust or judgmental looks.
My experience has convinced me that my husband is correct. Data and information in sociology, environmental science and other areas of education show that environment, family life, culture, ethnic background and an individual's personal experiences determine their various preferences, sexual or otherwise.
I also wanted to say, that my experience with Spence was unique. Not all gay married mormon men have bipolar disease. However, my former husband did which made the gay issue take a backseat to the problems stemming from his depression and bipolar condition. Before Spence, I had had nothing but wonderful experiences via my many gay and lesbian friends. i.e. My roommate in college, a married lesbian who's wife (married in Canada in the 19'80's) lived in Canada till she joined her after graduation. (there were 4 roommates). My best friend at my first radio station job as a newscaster Tommy W. My brother in laws brother who contracted the AIDS virus, and who is a professional entertainer. (if you watch Chris Rock the magician, you will know that he was trained by a famous magician from NY, thats my brother in laws bro, He has done numerous aids benefit shows, appearances etc. I guess what I'm trying to say is I have had gay friends since High School in NY and it was never an issue for me until I found myself married to a gay mormon dude in the temple! Then It became very different because of the sexual component, LDS background etc. He also did not tell me before we were married which made it more difficult for me when I found out on my own through some correspondence he wrote.
Well, I got off on a tangent again!LOL! I'm very good at that~ I look forward to future dialogue PM! Until then, God bless you, and although we don't see things the same, I do like your comments. Love, Kittywaymo
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